tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post541684930074340028..comments2024-03-25T17:49:41.408-07:00Comments on Salem Breakfast on Bikes: Piketty and the Pope: Oddball Notes that Didn't Fit AnywhereSalem Breakfast on Bikeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15618055627843335993noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-32542089937788704632015-01-05T18:55:35.886-08:002015-01-05T18:55:35.886-08:00Ah, you are right to point out that by saying &quo...Ah, you are right to point out that by saying "the flats" I may not sufficiently distinguish between Wallace and Edgewater.<br /><br />It's the Edgewater/Second Street area that really has the potential, not Wallace. You are right to point out how awful is Wallace for walking and biking.<br /><br />I am thinking of the neo-main-street and mixed use concepts in the Edgewater/Second Street Action Plan and the older, streetcar-era grid nearby. (As much as I am loathe to admit it, if Marine Drive gets going, and can be configured not as an expressway but as a more local kind of street, with good apartment design and such there is also the possibility to make lemonade out of that lemon. But Wallace itself is just a lemon.)<br /><br />If portions of Doaks Ferry could be upzoned and apartments scattered, that would be an improvement as you suggest - but the larger point here is that we should want to taper growth in West Salem because of the topographical constraints. If we have to put in new apartments in the hills in order to justify a new Fred Meyer there - we've failed in an important way.<br /><br />Redundancy is an important part of transportation networks. In West Salem we cannot have that redundancy - not at a billion dollars, anyway. For this reason alone, scattering development around West Salem is a bad idea: We should try to reduce development in West Salem, not because development is bad, but because uniquely in Salem, development in West Salem creates too many additional costs related to the near-impossibility of redundancy.<br /><br />As for the way you cite NYC, you should consider the close-in neighborhoods of Portland. These do not have anything near the densities of NYC, but along the old streetcar lines, they do have commercial clusters and support 10, 20, 30% bike/walk traveling rates, not to mention very high transit rates. Something like that is possible along Edgewater, Broadway/High Street NE, State Street - basically, anywhere where the street grid circa 1920 remains, there are real possibilities. You may underestimate the opportunities here in places like this, especially with your ideas about scattering density.<br /><br />This is one reason the north campus of OSH is so important. It is there, and not in the west Salem hills, where we should want chunks of Salem's growth. Doing the Blind School as a parking lot rather than a mixed-use project was a real missed opportunity, one that in 25 years will look like a big mistake. Even though it is agonizingly slow, Fairview is headed down a much better path. Hopefully north downtown and the north waterfront will be fruitful, building off eventual success at Fairview rather than off of ornamental emptiness or parking lot at the Blind School.Salem Breakfast on Bikeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15618055627843335993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-28423162214433151522015-01-05T01:09:43.346-08:002015-01-05T01:09:43.346-08:00I assume that you, SBB, do not live in West Salem....I assume that you, SBB, do not live in West Salem. I am surprised myself by how many people here actually do walk. Few ride bikes I have noticed as the hills are so steep that going down on a bike is dangerous and going up is basically hauling dead weight, but people do walk the hills here.<br /><br />That aside, I do not deny that with a shopping center on Doaks Ferry will still mean that the majority of people would drive. I just contend that driving to some place closer is better than driving further and especially when it is to a congested area like Wallace Road. The closest Fred Meyer type store is about 5 1/2 miles. Driving a mile or two would be some much less polluting than it is now<br /><br />Also, the current zoning is not in place to put higher density in the Doaks Ferry area either. It is all down on Wallace Road. That is rediculous. The better strategy is to scatter apartments around the area and not to make it a series of clustered apartments along major arterials. The strategy has been used in areas like Lancaster for decades and still people do not walk, because the major arterials are too dangerous for bikes or walkers. Crossings are too few and far between in order to keep the traffic flow moving along at a quick pace. <br /><br />While the idea is that people will get on a bus or walk is logical in theory, it is not what happens in practice. <br /><br />I contend that we need to be realistic. Doing the same thing that we know is not working in the hopes that some day it will work, is just foolish. <br /><br />Unless you get densities like we see in NY City where cars are way too expensive and shops can be sustained on the basis of the people from a few surrounding blocks, we are not going to get West Salem (or any part of Salem for that matter) turned into a place where a significant number of people walk or bike or even ride the bus....flat land or hilly.<br /><br />I lived near Lancaster Drive for 30 years. I know the mentality of people. They will not walk if they have a choice and will not take a bus if they can avoid it. They will get in their cars where they feel safer and have more options for where to go and how to get their goods home.<br /><br />The thing that is good about Lancaster is that you don't have to drive that far to get what you need. In West Salem you have to go up to 2 1/2 miles just to get a loaf of bread. It encourages waste and it contributes to congestion.<br /><br />You rail all the time about how major arterials are barriers to walking and biking and yet you seem to suggest that it is a good idea once again to build housing in such a way that they become wider and less hospitable. I don't get it.<br />Susann Kaltwassernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-15256948552992532412015-01-04T10:33:11.597-08:002015-01-04T10:33:11.597-08:00Well, we disagree somewhat here. I think there are...Well, we disagree somewhat here. I think there are a lot of trade-offs you may not be considering sufficiently.<br /><br />In a nutshell, it would be a lot harder to make the hills walkable than to leverage the already walkable nature of the flats.<br /><br />Just plopping a Fred Meyer or other shopping center in the hills would not make them walkable.<br /><br />Many of the reasons Cherriots abandoned service in the hills are the same reasons not to put a shopping center in the hills.The street network isn't always connected densely enough, the distances between destinations are large, and there's the fact of the hills and slopes themselves.<br /><br />By putting a Fred's in the flats, the expectation is not that people would hike 2 or 3 miles from the hills for groceries. They would still be expected to drive.<br /><br />The hope is that higher density apartments and condos would fill in and that meaningful numbers of people would be able to walk 1/4 mile or bike a mile or take a bus for groceries.<br /><br />In many ways it is reasonable basically to give up on the hills, leaving them car-dependent, and to shift more new development to the close-in flats, which can be walkable. So even though you are derisive about the conclusion, I think you have this part mostly right: "This plan ensure that everyone who does not live on the flats must drive."<br /><br />Only from here that looks like feature rather than a bug.Salem Breakfast on Bikeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15618055627843335993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-75773857926616620522015-01-04T07:54:39.471-08:002015-01-04T07:54:39.471-08:00Continued bad thought process. People can walk aro...Continued bad thought process. People can walk around these hills, but should not and cannot be expected to walk 2 and a half miles down hill and then 2 and a half miles uphill with our goods. This plan ensures that everyone who does not live on the flats MUST drive. It also ensures that congestion on Wallace Road and Edgewater will remain a bottleneck. These plans are either constructed by people who live on the flat, or do not live in West Salem. Susann Kaltwassernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-67528059405213929132015-01-03T10:52:11.894-08:002015-01-03T10:52:11.894-08:00Ah, I see. Yes, you are right, the NCMU is not sca...Ah, I see. Yes, you are right, the NCMU is not scaled for a Fred's or something similar.<br /><br />The West Salem Gateway study (summarized in <a href="http://www.cityofsalem.net/Departments/UrbanDevelopment/DepartmentProjects/Documents/Baseline-Conditions-Overview.pdf" rel="nofollow">this document</a>) called for "a large parcel [at Edgewater and Wallace in the industrial area] for a commercial development of 100,000 to 140,000 square feet, specifically for a general merchandiser."<br /><br />I think the planning intent has been to put it lower down as an anchor to more walkable/transit oriented kinds of development, as opposed to up in the hills where it would remain very car-dependent.Salem Breakfast on Bikeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15618055627843335993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-8230632164283356382015-01-02T23:17:41.907-08:002015-01-02T23:17:41.907-08:00Unfortunately the property that the NCMU developme...Unfortunately the property that the NCMU development was being proposed on is way too small for a business or businesses that could do any good. The best it might get is a convenience store and a few offices. We need something like a Fred Meyer to do any real good. But the available land is quickly disappearing on Doaks Ferry where it makes the most sense. Susann Kaltwassernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-80056324115399101752015-01-02T12:25:01.605-08:002015-01-02T12:25:01.605-08:00Very interesting, Jim! Do any of the flip charts t...Very interesting, Jim! Do any of the flip charts the City has posted exactly address this? If not, do you have additional documents that show this explicitly?<br /><br />In any case, that's a straight-up expression of what Charles Marohn calls "<a href="http://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/" rel="nofollow">the growth ponzi scheme</a>."<br /><br />Susann, I think that was the intent of <a href="http://www.cityofsalem.net/Departments/CommunityDevelopment/Planning/mixed-use_neighborhood_center_zone/Pages/default.aspx" rel="nofollow">the now-dormant NCMU zone</a>. Additionally, <a href="http://www.cityofsalem.net/westsalemplan" rel="nofollow">the stuff on Edgewater</a> is trying to go there as well. But neither have seemed strong enough to prompt much in the way of actual change.Salem Breakfast on Bikeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15618055627843335993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-8424543437858255432015-01-02T09:53:40.277-08:002015-01-02T09:53:40.277-08:00At the first work session the Salem City Council h...At the first work session the Salem City Council held on the 3rd Bridge way back in 2012, the City Public Works director stated that a primary purpose of building a 3rd Bridge was to encourage NW Salem to build out to the UGB so that the City could collect more property tax revenue for the General Fund. I believe this still may be the thinking at City Hall. They are still of the mindset that suburban sprawl pays for itself and then some. Not true.Jim Scheppkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04077003905171156283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5666195730630249633.post-87437930233340257472015-01-02T07:42:54.637-08:002015-01-02T07:42:54.637-08:00What West Salem needs is a new commercial zone tha...What West Salem needs is a new commercial zone that allows citizens to walk to stores and shops. Limiting residential development is not realistic, but creating zones that allow for less use of cars to reach services is very doable. What it takes is an enlightened Planning Commission and some visionary developers. The EOA/Housing committee could be a resource, but I am not sure that the staff is leading them in the right direction. What Salem lacks is true comprehensive planning and true leadership.Susann Kaltwassernoreply@blogger.com